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"In a recent set of interviews Israelis from a wide demographic were asked to justify their occupation of Palestine. Overwhelmingly the response was, to paraphrase, basically because their god said so. It seems that they really do believe that they have a divine mandate. I find that, quite frankly, terrifying." Why do you find it terrifying? | |||
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"Wrong on so many levels, please research your history properly." Who is? | |||
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"In a recent set of interviews Israelis from a wide demographic were asked to justify their occupation of Palestine. Overwhelmingly the response was, to paraphrase, basically because their god said so. It seems that they really do believe that they have a divine mandate. I find that, quite frankly, terrifying. Why do you find it terrifying? " In supporting Israel the west has aligned itself with religious fundamentalists. | |||
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"Wrong on so many levels, please research your history properly. Who is?" You is. | |||
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"Wrong on so many levels, please research your history properly. Who is? You is." Sorry to have to tell you this but you sound as if you have very little knowledge of the area or its history. | |||
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"Wrong on so many levels, please research your history properly. Who is? You is. Sorry to have to tell you this but you sound as if you have very little knowledge of the area or its history." Didn't you claim that Jews predate Palestine? It seems that i'm not the one found lacking. | |||
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"Wrong on so many levels, please research your history properly. Who is? You is. Sorry to have to tell you this but you sound as if you have very little knowledge of the area or its history. Didn't you claim that Jews predate Palestine? It seems that i'm not the one found lacking." Yes I did state that the Jews and the original kingdom of Israel do pre-date Palestine which is a fact. So I suggest you read up on history instead of swallowing the nonsense the extreme pro-Palestinian groups throw at you. | |||
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"In a recent set of interviews Israelis from a wide demographic were asked to justify their occupation of Palestine. Overwhelmingly the response was, to paraphrase, basically because their god said so. It seems that they really do believe that they have a divine mandate. I find that, quite frankly, terrifying. Why do you find it terrifying? In supporting Israel the west has aligned itself with religious fundamentalists. " It depends which flavour. I'd pick Israel over the Iranian religious nutjobs. Maybe because they are more likely to win. Not forgetting that a relative was Iraqi and they hate Iranians too. | |||
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"In supporting Israel the west has aligned itself with religious fundamentalists. " Ok that's hilarious. The choice is aligning yourself either with the religious fundamentalists in Israel or the religious fundamentalists in the rest of the Middle East. They're all as bad as the other. | |||
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"In supporting Israel the west has aligned itself with religious fundamentalists. Ok that's hilarious. The choice is aligning yourself either with the religious fundamentalists in Israel or the religious fundamentalists in the rest of the Middle East. They're all as bad as the other. " That is true, however at the moment only one set of fundamentalists is committing genocide. | |||
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"It's Holy War - and becasue of the level of the dick swinging of the 'my god is greater' nonsense, an impossibility showdown where each team thinks they are divinely right; there will never be peace in these so called 'holy lands'. Let them get on with it, I say. " Until recently , the holy lands had one of the most diverse religious demographic in the world. Practically every geographic region had it's on ancient religion still being practiced. Under this latest nationalist expansion from Israel that's again at risk. This is not just a religious war, it's a war by proxy where western states felt a Jewish enclave in the oil rich middle east would be a useful puppet and could be tenuously justified. The puppet now appears to be controling the puppet masters with home sec in this country, alone, benefiting from a quarter of a million in donations from Israeli organisations. This is not a case of saying let them get on with it, it's a case of cutting ties and stop pretending we have influence. | |||
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"In a recent set of interviews Israelis from a wide demographic were asked to justify their occupation of Palestine. Overwhelmingly the response was, to paraphrase, basically because their god said so. It seems that they really do believe that they have a divine mandate. I find that, quite frankly, terrifying. Why do you find it terrifying? In supporting Israel the west has aligned itself with religious fundamentalists. " Yet again . | |||
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"Golly! Gosh! Another thread initiated by this particular poster to excoriate Israel and the Jews. Who’d have thunk it, eh?! “It seems that they really do believe that they have a divine mandate.” Lots of the world religions believe they have a divine mandate and will claim their actions are predicated by that divine mandate. But you never want to discuss the follies of other religious zealots - just one particular religious group. The West has all sorts of alignments (often unsavoury and controversial) with “religious fundamentalists” the world over. But you never want to critique the West’s relationships with other fundamentalist regimes - just one particular religious group. This is because you are… OBSESSED WITH THE JEWS. "  | |||
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"The so-called Jews who were in Palestine and lived peacefully alonside everyone else for century were nothing like today's Zionists. Their religion was hardly recognisable as what we consider Jewish. They were native to the land, alongside other natives, including ethnic bedouin, Christians and Arabs. The problems all started when some religious nut-job decided that Zionism and the right to a homeland in what is now Israel, was a good idea, and got financial and political backing for it post-war. Remember the political backing was a solution to the European Jews nobody wanted and were fleeing Nazis so were effectively stateless. They had no ties to the land we call Israel, and still don't. They are nearly all white Europeans surplanted in an Arab region, and it was always a recipe for disaster. Very many have dual-nationality and right now very many are leaving Israel. What we see now is Israel in its worst imagining. Ultra-right wing, racist, entitled colonialist freaks who should be in prison. They're not Jews, in the same way a British person who is Christened isn't a Christian, they are mostly atheists, but they are rabid Zionists and everyone who is not like them, including you and me, is irrelevant to their goal of an ethnically pure society in Israel. Racism and hatred of Arabs (and others, black Jews in Israel are treated shockingly badly) is normalised, and encouraged in Israel. I used to live there so I have seen this in the every-day society. Many households won't even speak about Palestine or Arabs, as if they simply don't exisit or are bugs that need to be extermintaed. This is how they think. History is repeating in that what was done to them is now being done by them. Hamas and the like need to be gone, but they are the innevitable response to what Israel dishes out to the Arabs who truly have roots in the land. It isn't complicated - there are two sets of terrorists at war - its just that one side has way bigger bombs and the backing of the USA. If any other nation was doing what is being done to Gaza, we would be bombing the shit out of them. I know very many good Israeli Jews who live in Israel. Only they have the power to solve the problems, but there isn't enough of them. The herd is fanatical and led by psychopaths." What utter rubbish | |||
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"Yes. HAMAS" Can you add some detail to that? Hamas are doing next to nothing at the moment. Agreed they are cunts. But they aren’t committing genocide. The Israeli government on the other hand… | |||
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"My "rubbish" is knowledge from living in Israeli society, alongside normal Israelis. If that's your idea of rubbish, then I'd love to see what your idea of not-rubbish is. Too many speak about Israel and Palestine without knowing anything about the facts on the ground and the way their societies work. As I was part of that society, I think that gives me the knowledge, don't you? Or do you simply have a blanket policy of dismissing anything that doesn't fit your narrative, fact or not?" I stand by my post. I don't believe anything you say and you know NOTHING about me. Utter rubbish as I stated | |||
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"Yes. HAMAS Can you add some detail to that? Hamas are doing next to nothing at the moment. Agreed they are cunts. But they aren’t committing genocide. The Israeli government on the other hand…" Not sure Israel are committing genocide, that is a left-wing trope I think. On the other hand HAMAS and it's left-wing supporters are committed to the extinction of Jews.'River to the sea' etc | |||
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"From the river to the sea is what Israel and trump is creating the elimination of Palestine." Got a bit confused?? Listen to what the left-wing protesters are calling for. | |||
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"The so-called Jews who were in Palestine and lived peacefully alonside everyone else for century were nothing like today's Zionists. Their religion was hardly recognisable as what we consider Jewish. They were native to the land, alongside other natives, including ethnic bedouin, Christians and Arabs. The problems all started when some religious nut-job decided that Zionism and the right to a homeland in what is now Israel, was a good idea, and got financial and political backing for it post-war. Remember the political backing was a solution to the European Jews nobody wanted and were fleeing Nazis so were effectively stateless. They had no ties to the land we call Israel, and still don't. They are nearly all white Europeans surplanted in an Arab region, and it was always a recipe for disaster. Very many have dual-nationality and right now very many are leaving Israel. What we see now is Israel in its worst imagining. Ultra-right wing, racist, entitled colonialist freaks who should be in prison. They're not Jews, in the same way a British person who is Christened isn't a Christian, they are mostly atheists, but they are rabid Zionists and everyone who is not like them, including you and me, is irrelevant to their goal of an ethnically pure society in Israel. Racism and hatred of Arabs (and others, black Jews in Israel are treated shockingly badly) is normalised, and encouraged in Israel. I used to live there so I have seen this in the every-day society. Many households won't even speak about Palestine or Arabs, as if they simply don't exisit or are bugs that need to be extermintaed. This is how they think. History is repeating in that what was done to them is now being done by them. Hamas and the like need to be gone, but they are the innevitable response to what Israel dishes out to the Arabs who truly have roots in the land. It isn't complicated - there are two sets of terrorists at war - its just that one side has way bigger bombs and the backing of the USA. If any other nation was doing what is being done to Gaza, we would be bombing the shit out of them. I know very many good Israeli Jews who live in Israel. Only they have the power to solve the problems, but there isn't enough of them. The herd is fanatical and led by psychopaths." Erudite and completely true. Thank you for posting. | |||
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"Yes. HAMAS Can you add some detail to that? Hamas are doing next to nothing at the moment. Agreed they are cunts. But they aren’t committing genocide. The Israeli government on the other hand… Not sure Israel are committing genocide, that is a left-wing trope I think. On the other hand HAMAS and it's left-wing supporters are committed to the extinction of Jews.'River to the sea' etc" Not sure they are committing genocide? What part of shooting children dead at aid points and levelling entire cities isn’t genocide? Suddenly the systematic murder of an entire country is a left wing vs right wing issue??? That is lazy language which makes it far too easy for you to look away whilst atrocities are perpetrated. I am pro Israeli, I think it’s a fantastic place full of wonderful people. It is right to defend itself. Proportionally. But genocide is genocide and no one gets impunity. Hamas talk about all sorts of big things, but they don’t actually do it, the Israeli government spoke about the destruction of Gaza in 2017 (Smotric wrote well on his ambitions) and now they are doing it. We are watching and arguing over semantics. | |||
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"Hamas causes chaos, then provokes IDF to fire warning shots, whilst killing their own and then blaming Israel. It's a filthy tactic they've always done. " And of course you have evidence from independent sources to support this wild claim? | |||
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"Wrong on so many levels, please research your history properly. Who is? You is." You need to explain your answer. | |||
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"Wrong on so many levels, please research your history properly. Who is? You is. Sorry to have to tell you this but you sound as if you have very little knowledge of the area or its history. Didn't you claim that Jews predate Palestine? It seems that i'm not the one found lacking. Yes I did state that the Jews and the original kingdom of Israel do pre-date Palestine which is a fact. So I suggest you read up on history instead of swallowing the nonsense the extreme pro-Palestinian groups throw at you." Palestine was the name given to Canaan by the ancient Greeks after the pentopolis of Philistia, home to the Philistines. Mention of the land of Palestine and the Palestinian people have been found in Greek texts dated C12th BC. While there is no doubt as to the existence of both Israel and Judea they existed as mere provinces of the greater Canaan. Interestingly there is no evidence to support the idea that either region was occupied by Jews at that time. The Jews claim to come from Israel. If that is true that makes Jews Palestinians. Ironic don't you think? On a side note: Herodotus mentions Palestine and the Palestinian people in his works dated C5th BC and wrote at length about the many peoples and cultures of the Middle East . Nowhere in any of his writings does he mention Jews, Israel or Judea even though the study of anthropology was a particular favourite of his. I have to wonder at this. The way i see it is this: if i were to claim ownership of another's home i would expect any court in any land to demand physical evidence in support of this claim. The idea that ownership is granted on the grounds that there is no evidence of any kind to suggest otherwise does not wash with me nor should it wash with any court. Yet they have been granted it. | |||
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"Palestine was the name given to Canaan by the ancient Greeks after the pentopolis of Philistia, home to the Philistines. Mention of the land of Palestine and the Palestinian people have been found in Greek texts dated C12th BC. While there is no doubt as to the existence of both Israel and Judea they existed as mere provinces of the greater Canaan. Interestingly there is no evidence to support the idea that either region was occupied by Jews at that time. The Jews claim to come from Israel. If that is true that makes Jews Palestinians. Ironic don't you think? On a side note: Herodotus mentions Palestine and the Palestinian people in his works dated C5th BC and wrote at length about the many peoples and cultures of the Middle East . Nowhere in any of his writings does he mention Jews, Israel or Judea even though the study of anthropology was a particular favourite of his. I have to wonder at this. The way i see it is this: if i were to claim ownership of another's home i would expect any court in any land to demand physical evidence in support of this claim. The idea that ownership is granted on the grounds that there is no evidence of any kind to suggest otherwise does not wash with me nor should it wash with any court. Yet they have been granted it." History is subjective and varies from source to source. What is now Israel has been invaded and changed ethnicity many times over the centuries. It was certainly a Jewish state, albeit a 'client state' and province of the Roman Empire, 200 years ago. What happened to the Philistines and Samarians? Small pockets of claimed descendants of the later still exist. Whether the Balfour Declaration and subsequent creation of the State of Israel as a homeland for Jewish people, was right or wrong is a matter of opinion. Do you propose expelling all the Jews from the area? How would you feel if our country expelled all the people, and their descendants, who had arrived here in the last 75 or so years? Ideally there should be two or even three separate states. The West Bank and Gaza have little in common. Getting them to peacefully co-exist is an almost impossible dream. | |||
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"Palestine was the name given to Canaan by the ancient Greeks after the pentopolis of Philistia, home to the Philistines. Mention of the land of Palestine and the Palestinian people have been found in Greek texts dated C12th BC. While there is no doubt as to the existence of both Israel and Judea they existed as mere provinces of the greater Canaan. Interestingly there is no evidence to support the idea that either region was occupied by Jews at that time. The Jews claim to come from Israel. If that is true that makes Jews Palestinians. Ironic don't you think? On a side note: Herodotus mentions Palestine and the Palestinian people in his works dated C5th BC and wrote at length about the many peoples and cultures of the Middle East . Nowhere in any of his writings does he mention Jews, Israel or Judea even though the study of anthropology was a particular favourite of his. I have to wonder at this. The way i see it is this: if i were to claim ownership of another's home i would expect any court in any land to demand physical evidence in support of this claim. The idea that ownership is granted on the grounds that there is no evidence of any kind to suggest otherwise does not wash with me nor should it wash with any court. Yet they have been granted it. History is subjective and varies from source to source. What is now Israel has been invaded and changed ethnicity many times over the centuries. It was certainly a Jewish state, albeit a 'client state' and province of the Roman Empire, 200 years ago. What happened to the Philistines and Samarians? Small pockets of claimed descendants of the later still exist. Whether the Balfour Declaration and subsequent creation of the State of Israel as a homeland for Jewish people, was right or wrong is a matter of opinion. Do you propose expelling all the Jews from the area? How would you feel if our country expelled all the people, and their descendants, who had arrived here in the last 75 or so years? Ideally there should be two or even three separate states. The West Bank and Gaza have little in common. Getting them to peacefully co-exist is an almost impossible dream." History is based on the evidence available at that time. The difference is in how that evidence is interpreted, so yes, it is unfortunately subjective. The problem we have here is that history is being based solely on an ideological belief, on a book of dubious origins without any or little physical evidence to support it. This single fact is being used as justification for the annihilation of an entire people. That can't be right. | |||
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"Golly! Gosh! Another thread initiated by this particular poster to excoriate Israel and the Jews. Who’d have thunk it, eh?! “It seems that they really do believe that they have a divine mandate.” Lots of the world religions believe they have a divine mandate and will claim their actions are predicated by that divine mandate. But you never want to discuss the follies of other religious zealots - just one particular religious group. The West has all sorts of alignments (often unsavoury and controversial) with “religious fundamentalists” the world over. But you never want to critique the West’s relationships with other fundamentalist regimes - just one particular religious group. This is because you are… OBSESSED WITH THE JEWS. "Perhaps or perhaps because they are our "ally" who are currently carrying out ethnic cleansing on an industrial scale with our establishments backing? | |||
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"Palestine was the name given to Canaan by the ancient Greeks after the pentopolis of Philistia, home to the Philistines. Mention of the land of Palestine and the Palestinian people have been found in Greek texts dated C12th BC. While there is no doubt as to the existence of both Israel and Judea they existed as mere provinces of the greater Canaan. Interestingly there is no evidence to support the idea that either region was occupied by Jews at that time. The Jews claim to come from Israel. If that is true that makes Jews Palestinians. Ironic don't you think? On a side note: Herodotus mentions Palestine and the Palestinian people in his works dated C5th BC and wrote at length about the many peoples and cultures of the Middle East . Nowhere in any of his writings does he mention Jews, Israel or Judea even though the study of anthropology was a particular favourite of his. I have to wonder at this. The way i see it is this: if i were to claim ownership of another's home i would expect any court in any land to demand physical evidence in support of this claim. The idea that ownership is granted on the grounds that there is no evidence of any kind to suggest otherwise does not wash with me nor should it wash with any court. Yet they have been granted it. History is subjective and varies from source to source. What is now Israel has been invaded and changed ethnicity many times over the centuries. It was certainly a Jewish state, albeit a 'client state' and province of the Roman Empire, 200 years ago. What happened to the Philistines and Samarians? Small pockets of claimed descendants of the later still exist. Whether the Balfour Declaration and subsequent creation of the State of Israel as a homeland for Jewish people, was right or wrong is a matter of opinion. Do you propose expelling all the Jews from the area? How would you feel if our country expelled all the people, and their descendants, who had arrived here in the last 75 or so years? Ideally there should be two or even three separate states. The West Bank and Gaza have little in common. Getting them to peacefully co-exist is an almost impossible dream. History is based on the evidence available at that time. The difference is in how that evidence is interpreted, so yes, it is unfortunately subjective. The problem we have here is that history is being based solely on an ideological belief, on a book of dubious origins without any or little physical evidence to support it. This single fact is being used as justification for the annihilation of an entire people. That can't be right." Also, the Philistines and the Samarians and all the other Canaanite peoples are still there. This after millenia and the Jews' claim to have wiped them out. These are the true custodians of the land. | |||
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"Golly! Gosh! Another thread initiated by this particular poster to excoriate Israel and the Jews. Who’d have thunk it, eh?! “It seems that they really do believe that they have a divine mandate.” Lots of the world religions believe they have a divine mandate and will claim their actions are predicated by that divine mandate. But you never want to discuss the follies of other religious zealots - just one particular religious group. The West has all sorts of alignments (often unsavoury and controversial) with “religious fundamentalists” the world over. But you never want to critique the West’s relationships with other fundamentalist regimes - just one particular religious group. This is because you are… OBSESSED WITH THE JEWS.
Perhaps or perhaps because they are our "ally" who are currently carrying out ethnic cleansing on an industrial scale with our establishments backing? "No no no, how dare you be critical of a terrorist state that’s committing war crimes, whose PM is a war criminal and has a warrant for his arrest by the ICC, and a state that has been killing thousands and thousands of civilians What are you? An anti-Semite? Of course you are, if you oppose a genocide you’re an antisemite! | |||
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"Golly! Gosh! Another thread initiated by this particular poster to excoriate Israel and the Jews. Who’d have thunk it, eh?! “It seems that they really do believe that they have a divine mandate.” Lots of the world religions believe they have a divine mandate and will claim their actions are predicated by that divine mandate. But you never want to discuss the follies of other religious zealots - just one particular religious group. The West has all sorts of alignments (often unsavoury and controversial) with “religious fundamentalists” the world over. But you never want to critique the West’s relationships with other fundamentalist regimes - just one particular religious group. This is because you are… OBSESSED WITH THE JEWS.
Perhaps or perhaps because they are our "ally" who are currently carrying out ethnic cleansing on an industrial scale with our establishments backing? "When i expect evidence to counter my opinion this is all i get instead. It's really not worth bothering with. | |||
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" Also, the Philistines and the Samarians and all the other Canaanite peoples are still there. This after millenia and the Jews' claim to have wiped them out. These are the true custodians of the land. " It’s why DNA testing is illegal in Israel, it’s because the majority of them are Ashkenazi Jews, aka from Europe. The Palestinians are the indigenous people of the land, they’re the descendants of the original people from there. The DNA and archeological record proves it, there was a study done at the John Hopkins university, and the lead researcher was an Israeli Jew, that stated that the Palestinian DNA matches up with the ancient Hebrew DNA by 97.5%. The archeological findings found that there was no evidence of a mass Jewish diaspora from Palestine, but there is evidence of continued existence in Palestine. There’s a lot of evidence of conversion of Islam during the arab conquests, so the original inhabitants of the land simply converted. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3595026/ Here is the link to the peer reviewed studies and overwhelming evidence | |||
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" Also, the Philistines and the Samarians and all the other Canaanite peoples are still there. This after millenia and the Jews' claim to have wiped them out. These are the true custodians of the land. It’s why DNA testing is illegal in Israel, it’s because the majority of them are Ashkenazi Jews, aka from Europe. The Palestinians are the indigenous people of the land, they’re the descendants of the original people from there. The DNA and archeological record proves it, there was a study done at the John Hopkins university, and the lead researcher was an Israeli Jew, that stated that the Palestinian DNA matches up with the ancient Hebrew DNA by 97.5%. The archeological findings found that there was no evidence of a mass Jewish diaspora from Palestine, but there is evidence of continued existence in Palestine. There’s a lot of evidence of conversion of Islam during the arab conquests, so the original inhabitants of the land simply converted. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3595026/ Here is the link to the peer reviewed studies and overwhelming evidence "Also Ostrer's 'Genetic History of the Jewish People'. | |||
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" Also, the Philistines and the Samarians and all the other Canaanite peoples are still there. This after millenia and the Jews' claim to have wiped them out. These are the true custodians of the land. It’s why DNA testing is illegal in Israel, it’s because the majority of them are Ashkenazi Jews, aka from Europe. The Palestinians are the indigenous people of the land, they’re the descendants of the original people from there. The DNA and archeological record proves it, there was a study done at the John Hopkins university, and the lead researcher was an Israeli Jew, that stated that the Palestinian DNA matches up with the ancient Hebrew DNA by 97.5%. The archeological findings found that there was no evidence of a mass Jewish diaspora from Palestine, but there is evidence of continued existence in Palestine. There’s a lot of evidence of conversion of Islam during the arab conquests, so the original inhabitants of the land simply converted. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3595026/ Here is the link to the peer reviewed studies and overwhelming evidence
Also Ostrer's 'Genetic History of the Jewish People'."Yup, anyone who actively reads peer reviewed books and studied cannot deny that the Palestinians are the original people of that land Whereas, Ashkenazi Jews, who are Europeans, are just settler colonialists. All the DNA and archeological findings prove it to be true. However, they’ll use the argument that magic man in the sky promised us the land 3000 years ago, it’s so stupid that it’s funny. | |||
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"Out of interest where and what do you pro-Palestinians propose the Jewish/Israeli population of the current State of Israel do? Move away en bloc to lands unknown? Whether the Israeli Jewish population are descendants of the Biblical tribes of the Levant is rather irrelevant. It is now their home. I also have serious doubts about the Palestinians being the original occupants of that troubled land. They speak Arabic, identify with Arabs and probably moved there, over the centuries, from Egypt, Jordan, Syria etc. It is a very troubled land and has been fought over and occupied by many different tribes and empires over the centuries. Millennia even. There is no simple solution and we are not going to solve it." Plus, the Syrians, Egyptians and Jordanians don't want the Palestinians in their countries. That's telling. | |||
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"Out of interest where and what do you pro-Palestinians propose the Jewish/Israeli population of the current State of Israel do? Move away en bloc to lands unknown? Whether the Israeli Jewish population are descendants of the Biblical tribes of the Levant is rather irrelevant. It is now their home. I also have serious doubts about the Palestinians being the original occupants of that troubled land. They speak Arabic, identify with Arabs and probably moved there, over the centuries, from Egypt, Jordan, Syria etc. It is a very troubled land and has been fought over and occupied by many different tribes and empires over the centuries. Millennia even. There is no simple solution and we are not going to solve it. Plus, the Syrians, Egyptians and Jordanians don't want the Palestinians in their countries. That's telling. " It’s not really telling at all if you scratch the surface a little. Firstly, there are already plenty of Palestinian refugees in the aforementioned countries. Secondly, they couldn’t get out even if they wanted to, they are being kept in a metaphorical cage without means to leave. Thirdly, they know once they leave or once the neighbouring countries accept them, there is no way Israel will let them back in again. So not very telling at all. | |||
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"Out of interest where and what do you pro-Palestinians propose the Jewish/Israeli population of the current State of Israel do? Move away en bloc to lands unknown? Whether the Israeli Jewish population are descendants of the Biblical tribes of the Levant is rather irrelevant. It is now their home. I also have serious doubts about the Palestinians being the original occupants of that troubled land. They speak Arabic, identify with Arabs and probably moved there, over the centuries, from Egypt, Jordan, Syria etc. It is a very troubled land and has been fought over and occupied by many different tribes and empires over the centuries. Millennia even. There is no simple solution and we are not going to solve it." Considering a lot of them are settlers from western countries, such as the US, Poland, etc. they could simply move back to where they came from. Or they can live peacefully together, like Jews, Christians and Arabs did for hundreds of years under the Ottoman Empire. You can have serious doubts, but luckily facts and science do not care about your doubts and feelings. The current Palestinian people have 97.5% match to the ancient Hebrew people of that lands DNA, which means that they are the indigenous to the land. They speak Arabic, and identify as Arabs, because during the Arab conquest, they converted to Islam, and the Muslim empires ruled over the land for hundreds and hundreds of years. Whereas, Ashkenazi DNA (the majority of people in Israel currently), their DNA is a mixture of Khazar DNA (nomadic Turkic people that converted to Judaism) and white european, meaning they are not indigenous to Palestine, even if their magic man in the sky says they are. Backed up by archeological studies which shows there’s no evidence of a mass diaspora of Jewish people in Palestine, but there is evidence that there is continued existence in Palestine, simply meaning that over time the Palestinians simply converted from Judaism to Islam. Whereas, there is evidence found and shows conversion to Judaism in Europe and by the khazars. You can read the study about the DNA here, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3595026/, it’s peer reviewed and was done by an Israeli Jew | |||
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"Out of interest where and what do you pro-Palestinians propose the Jewish/Israeli population of the current State of Israel do? Move away en bloc to lands unknown? Whether the Israeli Jewish population are descendants of the Biblical tribes of the Levant is rather irrelevant. It is now their home. I also have serious doubts about the Palestinians being the original occupants of that troubled land. They speak Arabic, identify with Arabs and probably moved there, over the centuries, from Egypt, Jordan, Syria etc. It is a very troubled land and has been fought over and occupied by many different tribes and empires over the centuries. Millennia even. There is no simple solution and we are not going to solve it. Plus, the Syrians, Egyptians and Jordanians don't want the Palestinians in their countries. That's telling. " No silly, Many Arabic countries have taken Palestinian refugees There’s millions of Palestinians in Jordan, half a million in Lebanon, 200,000 in Egypt, 500,000 in Syria. It’s like saying, why don’t the UK take ALL Ukrainian refugees, after all, you’re both white and European. | |||
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"Posts have been removed. "The threatening post against the OP has been removed for violating the site's Terms & Conditions. It wasn't welcome here at all | |||
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"Posts have been removed.
The threatening post against the OP has been removed for violating the site's Terms & Conditions. It wasn't welcome here at all "As a staunch believer in freedom of expression to be happy with that action would be somewhat hypocritical. | |||
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"Posts have been removed.
The threatening post against the OP has been removed for violating the site's Terms & Conditions. It wasn't welcome here at all
As a staunch believer in freedom of expression to be happy with that action would be somewhat hypocritical."I accept the point you make DannyDanielle, although whilst freedom of expression is crucial, it's not about allowing threats to life. Death threats, in particular, undermine the very foundation of free speech, as they aim to silence and intimidate. Moderating such content with zero tolerance ensures a safe space for constructive discussion and protects users' rights to express themselves without fear. | |||
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"Posts have been removed.
The threatening post against the OP has been removed for violating the site's Terms & Conditions. It wasn't welcome here at all
As a staunch believer in freedom of expression to be happy with that action would be somewhat hypocritical.
I accept the point you make DannyDanielle, although whilst freedom of expression is crucial, it's not about allowing threats to life.
Death threats, in particular, undermine the very foundation of free speech, as they aim to silence and intimidate.
Moderating such content with zero tolerance ensures a safe space for constructive discussion and protects users' rights to express themselves without fear."Although I don't agree with various issues _annydanielle post I DO agree on him on this issue. Although unpleasant, I don't think the removed post was seriously believed. Just a nasty comment of which I certainly have had a few personal attacks. | |||
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"Posts have been removed.
The threatening post against the OP has been removed for violating the site's Terms & Conditions. It wasn't welcome here at all
As a staunch believer in freedom of expression to be happy with that action would be somewhat hypocritical.
I accept the point you make DannyDanielle, although whilst freedom of expression is crucial, it's not about allowing threats to life.
Death threats, in particular, undermine the very foundation of free speech, as they aim to silence and intimidate.
Moderating such content with zero tolerance ensures a safe space for constructive discussion and protects users' rights to express themselves without fear.
Although I don't agree with various issues _annydanielle post I DO agree on him on this issue.
Although unpleasant, I don't think the removed post was seriously believed. Just a nasty comment of which I certainly have had a few personal attacks. "When threats of violence are tolerated, even if made in jest, freedom of expression is effectively negated for those who feel threatened. The Forum's value lies in promoting open discussion while ensuring a safe environment for all users which I'm sure that you will fully appreciate. | |||
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"Posts have been removed.
The threatening post against the OP has been removed for violating the site's Terms & Conditions. It wasn't welcome here at all
As a staunch believer in freedom of expression to be happy with that action would be somewhat hypocritical.
I accept the point you make DannyDanielle, although whilst freedom of expression is crucial, it's not about allowing threats to life.
Death threats, in particular, undermine the very foundation of free speech, as they aim to silence and intimidate.
Moderating such content with zero tolerance ensures a safe space for constructive discussion and protects users' rights to express themselves without fear.
Although I don't agree with various issues _annydanielle post I DO agree on him on this issue.
Although unpleasant, I don't think the removed post was seriously believed. Just a nasty comment of which I certainly have had a few personal attacks.
When threats of violence are tolerated, even if made in jest, freedom of expression is effectively negated for those who feel threatened.
The Forum's value lies in promoting open discussion while ensuring a safe environment for all users which I'm sure that you will fully appreciate.
"To paraphrase Eckhart Tolle: "it's down to the recipient to choose whether or not to take offence". It's not unreasonable to extend this to any comment made to anyone about anything. The correct question would have been, "did the recipient feel threatened?" On one of the very few occasions i find myself in agreement with _anmanners. Who would have thought? | |||
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" If any other nation was doing what is being done to Gaza, we would be bombing the shit out of them." If any other nation was doing what is being done in Gaza, we would be applying SANCTIONS. But because Israel are so entrenched in our media, government and ecconomy, we would be sanctioning ourselves. | |||
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"Posts have been removed.
The threatening post against the OP has been removed for violating the site's Terms & Conditions. It wasn't welcome here at all
As a staunch believer in freedom of expression to be happy with that action would be somewhat hypocritical.
I accept the point you make DannyDanielle, although whilst freedom of expression is crucial, it's not about allowing threats to life.
Death threats, in particular, undermine the very foundation of free speech, as they aim to silence and intimidate.
Moderating such content with zero tolerance ensures a safe space for constructive discussion and protects users' rights to express themselves without fear.
Although I don't agree with various issues _annydanielle post I DO agree on him on this issue.
Although unpleasant, I don't think the removed post was seriously believed. Just a nasty comment of which I certainly have had a few personal attacks.
When threats of violence are tolerated, even if made in jest, freedom of expression is effectively negated for those who feel threatened.
The Forum's value lies in promoting open discussion while ensuring a safe environment for all users which I'm sure that you will fully appreciate.
To paraphrase Eckhart Tolle: "it's down to the recipient to choose whether or not to take offence". It's not unreasonable to extend this to any comment made to anyone about anything.
The correct question would have been, "did the recipient feel threatened?" On one of the very few occasions i find myself in agreement with _anmanners. Who would have thought?"While it's true that individuals can choose how to respond to comments, a threat made in an open forum affects more than just the intended target. As it was visible to everyone and contravened the Site's Terms and Conditions, removal was necessary to maintain a safe environment for all users. Moderation in this case wasn't about limiting expression, but about upholding the community standards we all agree to when participating here. | |||
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"Posts have been removed.
The threatening post against the OP has been removed for violating the site's Terms & Conditions. It wasn't welcome here at all
As a staunch believer in freedom of expression to be happy with that action would be somewhat hypocritical.
I accept the point you make DannyDanielle, although whilst freedom of expression is crucial, it's not about allowing threats to life.
Death threats, in particular, undermine the very foundation of free speech, as they aim to silence and intimidate.
Moderating such content with zero tolerance ensures a safe space for constructive discussion and protects users' rights to express themselves without fear.
Although I don't agree with various issues _annydanielle post I DO agree on him on this issue.
Although unpleasant, I don't think the removed post was seriously believed. Just a nasty comment of which I certainly have had a few personal attacks.
When threats of violence are tolerated, even if made in jest, freedom of expression is effectively negated for those who feel threatened.
The Forum's value lies in promoting open discussion while ensuring a safe environment for all users which I'm sure that you will fully appreciate.
To paraphrase Eckhart Tolle: "it's down to the recipient to choose whether or not to take offence". It's not unreasonable to extend this to any comment made to anyone about anything.
The correct question would have been, "did the recipient feel threatened?" On one of the very few occasions i find myself in agreement with _anmanners. Who would have thought?
While it's true that individuals can choose how to respond to comments, a threat made in an open forum affects more than just the intended target.
As it was visible to everyone and contravened the Site's Terms and Conditions, removal was necessary to maintain a safe environment for all users.
Moderation in this case wasn't about limiting expression, but about upholding the community standards we all agree to when participating here.
"Ok, i hear you and accept your reasoning. Time to get this thing back on track perhaps. | |||
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"Posts have been removed.
The threatening post against the OP has been removed for violating the site's Terms & Conditions. It wasn't welcome here at all
As a staunch believer in freedom of expression to be happy with that action would be somewhat hypocritical.
I accept the point you make DannyDanielle, although whilst freedom of expression is crucial, it's not about allowing threats to life.
Death threats, in particular, undermine the very foundation of free speech, as they aim to silence and intimidate.
Moderating such content with zero tolerance ensures a safe space for constructive discussion and protects users' rights to express themselves without fear.
Although I don't agree with various issues _annydanielle post I DO agree on him on this issue.
Although unpleasant, I don't think the removed post was seriously believed. Just a nasty comment of which I certainly have had a few personal attacks.
When threats of violence are tolerated, even if made in jest, freedom of expression is effectively negated for those who feel threatened.
The Forum's value lies in promoting open discussion while ensuring a safe environment for all users which I'm sure that you will fully appreciate.
To paraphrase Eckhart Tolle: "it's down to the recipient to choose whether or not to take offence". It's not unreasonable to extend this to any comment made to anyone about anything.
The correct question would have been, "did the recipient feel threatened?" On one of the very few occasions i find myself in agreement with _anmanners. Who would have thought?
While it's true that individuals can choose how to respond to comments, a threat made in an open forum affects more than just the intended target.
As it was visible to everyone and contravened the Site's Terms and Conditions, removal was necessary to maintain a safe environment for all users.
Moderation in this case wasn't about limiting expression, but about upholding the community standards we all agree to when participating here.
Ok, i hear you and accept your reasoning.
Time to get this thing back on track perhaps."Thank you DannyDanielle, yes indeed let the discussion continue. 🙂 | |||
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"The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex issue with deep historical, cultural, and religious roots. While some individuals may cite religious beliefs as justification, many Israelis and supporters of Israel's existence point to the need for a Jewish homeland after the Holocaust and centuries of persecution, the 1948 UN partition plan and Israel's subsequent establishment, security concerns and the desire for self-defense, and cultural and emotional ties to the land. It's essential to acknowledge the diversity of perspectives within the Israeli population and the complexity of the issue, which cannot be reduced to a single factor like divine mandate." With all due respect it's actually quite simple. The importance of the land of Israel only became a feature with the rise of Zionism in C19th Germany (ironic, eh?). It was consolidated by Graetz's multi volumed magnum opus 'History of the Jews' published 1853. Here the author successfully manipulated the words of the Old Testament to suit the Zionist ideal. This is where i believe the idea of a divine mandate was forged. Until this point majority Jews had little or no interest in Palestine. Indeed, imigrants even had to be offered financial incentives to go there. They were quite happy in Europe, any that wanted to leave simply emigrated to America. It wasn't until the Johnson/Reed immigration act of 1924 that this ceased to be an option. A plan for Israel was submitted to the Paris Peace Accord of 1919. Of note is that it was called the Zionist Plan, not the Jewish Plan. This saw the Zionists demanding an area of land much bigger than Israel is at present and included significant portions of Syria, Lebanon and what was then Transjordan. The idea has always been to claim as big an area of land as possible and populate it with as many Jews as possible. It appears that Netanyahu is currently working hard to realise this. Nothing at all to do with the Holocaust, a tragedy that the Zionists have been cashing in on ever since. All that did was to give Israel global impunity to behave in any way they wish. All on the back of a claimed 'divine mandate' published in 1853. | |||
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"It’s not our war , the UK are not directly involved so why are so many people getting there pants in a twist? Stop getting involved in situations that don’t concern you all . Hamas would have 99.9% of you executed. " I think the way Israel is behaving is everyone's problem, and the way Hamas behaved is everyone's problem. When Israel sets the bar so low in its lopsided 'war' against Hamas, others can follow. When States are allowed to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity, so can others. Hamas wouldn't execute any of us - there's far more of us than them and we're not killing, starving and holding them in an open prison. | |||
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"It’s not our war , the UK are not directly involved so why are so many people getting there pants in a twist? Stop getting involved in situations that don’t concern you all . Hamas would have 99.9% of you executed. " It may not be our war but can we truly let this happen to innocent civilians - they are starving them out, crippling them, killing all who stand in their way. | |||
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"It’s not our war , the UK are not directly involved so why are so many people getting there pants in a twist? Stop getting involved in situations that don’t concern you all . Hamas would have 99.9% of you executed. " Because whilst you’re rooting for Israel to depopulate and displace Palestinians, there will then be thousands of Palestinians rocking up to England as refugees, and then you’ll be complaining about them. Just look up the data on Arabs migrating to western countries before 1948 (creation of Israel), and after, and it’s simply due to the fact that Israel has ruined the Middle East. Several wars over there (Afghanistan, Iran), regime changes in Syria, Libya, etc. which were all done to benefit Israel, destabilising those countries leading to refugees migrating to England. So yes, their war directly effects the UK | |||
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" In supporting Israel the west has aligned itself with religious fundamentalists. " Tbh, I think religious fundamentalism is the problem on both sides. So much entrenched hatred on both sides. | |||
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"The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex issue with deep historical, cultural, and religious roots. While some individuals may cite religious beliefs as justification, many Israelis and supporters of Israel's existence point to the need for a Jewish homeland after the Holocaust and centuries of persecution, the 1948 UN partition plan and Israel's subsequent establishment, security concerns and the desire for self-defense, and cultural and emotional ties to the land. It's essential to acknowledge the diversity of perspectives within the Israeli population and the complexity of the issue, which cannot be reduced to a single factor like divine mandate. With all due respect it's actually quite simple. The importance of the land of Israel only became a feature with the rise of Zionism in C19th Germany (ironic, eh?). It was consolidated by Graetz's multi volumed magnum opus 'History of the Jews' published 1853. Here the author successfully manipulated the words of the Old Testament to suit the Zionist ideal. This is where i believe the idea of a divine mandate was forged. Until this point majority Jews had little or no interest in Palestine. Indeed, imigrants even had to be offered financial incentives to go there. They were quite happy in Europe, any that wanted to leave simply emigrated to America. It wasn't until the Johnson/Reed immigration act of 1924 that this ceased to be an option. A plan for Israel was submitted to the Paris Peace Accord of 1919. Of note is that it was called the Zionist Plan, not the Jewish Plan. This saw the Zionists demanding an area of land much bigger than Israel is at present and included significant portions of Syria, Lebanon and what was then Transjordan. The idea has always been to claim as big an area of land as possible and populate it with as many Jews as possible. It appears that Netanyahu is currently working hard to realise this. Nothing at all to do with the Holocaust, a tragedy that the Zionists have been cashing in on ever since. All that did was to give Israel global impunity to behave in any way they wish. All on the back of a claimed 'divine mandate' published in 1853." Thanks DannyDanielle, whilst Zionism did emerge in the 19th century, the connection between Jews and the land of Israel predates this movement. The idea of a Jewish homeland has roots in ancient times, with the Hebrew Bible and Jewish tradition emphasising the significance of the land. Graetz's work was influential in shaping Jewish historiography, but it's reductionist to say the idea of a divine mandate was "forged" in 1853. Jewish texts and traditions have long referenced the land as a promised territory. The assertion that most Jews had little interest in Palestine before Zionism overlooks the fact that Jewish communities existed in the region for centuries. Immigration to Palestine did increase with Zionism, and some immigrants were indeed incentivised. The Johnson-Reed Act of 1924 did limit immigration to the US, but this doesn't capture the full complexity of Jewish migration patterns. The Zionist Plan submitted to the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 did propose a larger territory, but this plan was not solely driven by a desire to claim as much land as possible. Various factors, including strategic and economic considerations, influenced these territorial ambitions. The Holocaust's impact on the establishment of Israel and global perceptions of the conflict cannot be reduced to the idea that Zionists have been "cashing in" on the tragedy. The event had a profound impact on international support for a Jewish state. The current situation is multifaceted, with various actors and interests at play. Simplification of these complexities can hinder understanding and detailed discussion. | |||
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"The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex issue with deep historical, cultural, and religious roots. While some individuals may cite religious beliefs as justification, many Israelis and supporters of Israel's existence point to the need for a Jewish homeland after the Holocaust and centuries of persecution, the 1948 UN partition plan and Israel's subsequent establishment, security concerns and the desire for self-defense, and cultural and emotional ties to the land. It's essential to acknowledge the diversity of perspectives within the Israeli population and the complexity of the issue, which cannot be reduced to a single factor like divine mandate. With all due respect it's actually quite simple. The importance of the land of Israel only became a feature with the rise of Zionism in C19th Germany (ironic, eh?). It was consolidated by Graetz's multi volumed magnum opus 'History of the Jews' published 1853. Here the author successfully manipulated the words of the Old Testament to suit the Zionist ideal. This is where i believe the idea of a divine mandate was forged. Until this point majority Jews had little or no interest in Palestine. Indeed, imigrants even had to be offered financial incentives to go there. They were quite happy in Europe, any that wanted to leave simply emigrated to America. It wasn't until the Johnson/Reed immigration act of 1924 that this ceased to be an option. A plan for Israel was submitted to the Paris Peace Accord of 1919. Of note is that it was called the Zionist Plan, not the Jewish Plan. This saw the Zionists demanding an area of land much bigger than Israel is at present and included significant portions of Syria, Lebanon and what was then Transjordan. The idea has always been to claim as big an area of land as possible and populate it with as many Jews as possible. It appears that Netanyahu is currently working hard to realise this. Nothing at all to do with the Holocaust, a tragedy that the Zionists have been cashing in on ever since. All that did was to give Israel global impunity to behave in any way they wish. All on the back of a claimed 'divine mandate' published in 1853. Thanks DannyDanielle, whilst Zionism did emerge in the 19th century, the connection between Jews and the land of Israel predates this movement. The idea of a Jewish homeland has roots in ancient times, with the Hebrew Bible and Jewish tradition emphasising the significance of the land. Graetz's work was influential in shaping Jewish historiography, but it's reductionist to say the idea of a divine mandate was "forged" in 1853. Jewish texts and traditions have long referenced the land as a promised territory. The assertion that most Jews had little interest in Palestine before Zionism overlooks the fact that Jewish communities existed in the region for centuries. Immigration to Palestine did increase with Zionism, and some immigrants were indeed incentivised. The Johnson-Reed Act of 1924 did limit immigration to the US, but this doesn't capture the full complexity of Jewish migration patterns. The Zionist Plan submitted to the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 did propose a larger territory, but this plan was not solely driven by a desire to claim as much land as possible. Various factors, including strategic and economic considerations, influenced these territorial ambitions. The Holocaust's impact on the establishment of Israel and global perceptions of the conflict cannot be reduced to the idea that Zionists have been "cashing in" on the tragedy. The event had a profound impact on international support for a Jewish state. The current situation is multifaceted, with various actors and interests at play. Simplification of these complexities can hinder understanding and detailed discussion." Well written, thank you, and a pleasant change from the usual responses. Of course Palestine has always been held as the promised land and there have always been claims of an ancestral heritage. The question is how important was this to the Jewish psyche? I would say not at all, certainly not until recently. Israel was destroyed C8th BC, Judea C6th BC. Jews continued to inhabit the region through the Roman occupation and did not become the minority religion until circa 500AD. By the fall of the Ottoman Empire they numbered less than 5%. This sounds to me more like natural wastage than the claimed expulsion by the Romans. Indeed the Romans never had a policy of expelling entire populations and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Therefore, a people that emigrate voluntarily surely also give up their claim to the land and ultimately the right to return? They've had over a 1000 years of opportunity to return and yet not done so until now. Hardly the actions of a people who place that much importance on heritage. Meanwhile the Palestinians have always been there and were there before the Jews. Who, then, has the greater claim? As far as the Zionist Plan goes, the area demanded was much bigger than the original kingdoms of Israel and Judea combined. If that's not a land grab i don't know what is. I suspect the reimagining of this plan is what's driving Netanyahu now. The tragedy of the Holocaust has certainly had an impact on international support for the regime but not in a good way. All the Holocaust has served to do is grant Israel global impunity to commit acts of the most extreme barbarity and cruelty. Zionists must view the Holocaust as a gift to their cause and are intent on passing on that trauma to their offspring. | |||
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"Finding this discussion interesting. Particularly all the support for Hamas. I think Hamas is the block to peace. If Hamas laid down it weapons, there would be peace eventually. If Israel laid down its, Israel would be destroyed. Also from the perspective of a bi man, I the support strange. Homosexuality in Gaza is punishable by death. Israel is the only country in the middle east where Homosexuality is legal" Well said x | |||
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"Finding this discussion interesting. Particularly all the support for Hamas. I think Hamas is the block to peace. If Hamas laid down it weapons, there would be peace eventually. If Israel laid down its, Israel would be destroyed. Also from the perspective of a bi man, I the support strange. Homosexuality in Gaza is punishable by death. Israel is the only country in the middle east where Homosexuality is legal Well said x" So it's ok to slaughter people just because they have different beliefs? Borderline fascism. | |||
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"The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex issue with deep historical, cultural, and religious roots. While some individuals may cite religious beliefs as justification, many Israelis and supporters of Israel's existence point to the need for a Jewish homeland after the Holocaust and centuries of persecution, the 1948 UN partition plan and Israel's subsequent establishment, security concerns and the desire for self-defense, and cultural and emotional ties to the land. It's essential to acknowledge the diversity of perspectives within the Israeli population and the complexity of the issue, which cannot be reduced to a single factor like divine mandate. With all due respect it's actually quite simple. The importance of the land of Israel only became a feature with the rise of Zionism in C19th Germany (ironic, eh?). It was consolidated by Graetz's multi volumed magnum opus 'History of the Jews' published 1853. Here the author successfully manipulated the words of the Old Testament to suit the Zionist ideal. This is where i believe the idea of a divine mandate was forged. Until this point majority Jews had little or no interest in Palestine. Indeed, imigrants even had to be offered financial incentives to go there. They were quite happy in Europe, any that wanted to leave simply emigrated to America. It wasn't until the Johnson/Reed immigration act of 1924 that this ceased to be an option. A plan for Israel was submitted to the Paris Peace Accord of 1919. Of note is that it was called the Zionist Plan, not the Jewish Plan. This saw the Zionists demanding an area of land much bigger than Israel is at present and included significant portions of Syria, Lebanon and what was then Transjordan. The idea has always been to claim as big an area of land as possible and populate it with as many Jews as possible. It appears that Netanyahu is currently working hard to realise this. Nothing at all to do with the Holocaust, a tragedy that the Zionists have been cashing in on ever since. All that did was to give Israel global impunity to behave in any way they wish. All on the back of a claimed 'divine mandate' published in 1853. Thanks DannyDanielle, whilst Zionism did emerge in the 19th century, the connection between Jews and the land of Israel predates this movement. The idea of a Jewish homeland has roots in ancient times, with the Hebrew Bible and Jewish tradition emphasising the significance of the land. Graetz's work was influential in shaping Jewish historiography, but it's reductionist to say the idea of a divine mandate was "forged" in 1853. Jewish texts and traditions have long referenced the land as a promised territory. The assertion that most Jews had little interest in Palestine before Zionism overlooks the fact that Jewish communities existed in the region for centuries. Immigration to Palestine did increase with Zionism, and some immigrants were indeed incentivised. The Johnson-Reed Act of 1924 did limit immigration to the US, but this doesn't capture the full complexity of Jewish migration patterns. The Zionist Plan submitted to the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 did propose a larger territory, but this plan was not solely driven by a desire to claim as much land as possible. Various factors, including strategic and economic considerations, influenced these territorial ambitions. The Holocaust's impact on the establishment of Israel and global perceptions of the conflict cannot be reduced to the idea that Zionists have been "cashing in" on the tragedy. The event had a profound impact on international support for a Jewish state. The current situation is multifaceted, with various actors and interests at play. Simplification of these complexities can hinder understanding and detailed discussion. Well written, thank you, and a pleasant change from the usual responses. Of course Palestine has always been held as the promised land and there have always been claims of an ancestral heritage. The question is how important was this to the Jewish psyche? I would say not at all, certainly not until recently. Israel was destroyed C8th BC, Judea C6th BC. Jews continued to inhabit the region through the Roman occupation and did not become the minority religion until circa 500AD. By the fall of the Ottoman Empire they numbered less than 5%. This sounds to me more like natural wastage than the claimed expulsion by the Romans. Indeed the Romans never had a policy of expelling entire populations and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Therefore, a people that emigrate voluntarily surely also give up their claim to the land and ultimately the right to return? They've had over a 1000 years of opportunity to return and yet not done so until now. Hardly the actions of a people who place that much importance on heritage. Meanwhile the Palestinians have always been there and were there before the Jews. Who, then, has the greater claim? As far as the Zionist Plan goes, the area demanded was much bigger than the original kingdoms of Israel and Judea combined. If that's not a land grab i don't know what is. I suspect the reimagining of this plan is what's driving Netanyahu now. The tragedy of the Holocaust has certainly had an impact on international support for the regime but not in a good way. All the Holocaust has served to do is grant Israel global impunity to commit acts of the most extreme barbarity and cruelty. Zionists must view the Holocaust as a gift to their cause and are intent on passing on that trauma to their offspring. " Allow me to add: how can a people who place so much importance on ancestry not only claim to have slaughtered their ancesters but also brag about doing so? | |||
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"Finding this discussion interesting. Particularly all the support for Hamas. I think Hamas is the block to peace. If Hamas laid down it weapons, there would be peace eventually. If Israel laid down its, Israel would be destroyed. Also from the perspective of a bi man, I the support strange. Homosexuality in Gaza is punishable by death. Israel is the only country in the middle east where Homosexuality is legal" ... ... 🏴 What support for Hamas? There has been none.🏴 | |||
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"Finding this discussion interesting. Particularly all the support for Hamas. I think Hamas is the block to peace. If Hamas laid down it weapons, there would be peace eventually. If Israel laid down its, Israel would be destroyed. Also from the perspective of a bi man, I the support strange. Homosexuality in Gaza is punishable by death. Israel is the only country in the middle east where Homosexuality is legal" Homosexuality in Qatar, Saudi Arabia and UAE is also punishable by death. They're meant to be moderate friendly allies. Criticism of Israel is usually not about support for Hamas, and ive not seen any comments in support of Hamas. Ive seen plenty of comments criticial of both Israel and Hamas. It's about the human condition of empathy, humanity and justice and wanting cruety to end. It's more about morality. What Israel is doing jars many folk's moral compass, for very obvious reasons. | |||
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"Finding this discussion interesting. Particularly all the support for Hamas. I think Hamas is the block to peace. If Hamas laid down it weapons, there would be peace eventually. If Israel laid down its, Israel would be destroyed. Also from the perspective of a bi man, I the support strange. Homosexuality in Gaza is punishable by death. Israel is the only country in the middle east where Homosexuality is legal" Exactly. I despair at these crazy people holding up their banners saying 'Gays for Palestine' or 'LGBT+++ for Palestine'. | |||
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"I have sympathy with the people of Gaza. But it is a war, a war started by their Hamas govt. Civilians have suffered in every war since time began and I am sure they will till the end of time." Firstly the conflict was not started by Hamas. The existence and actions of Hamas are a consequence of the systematic oppression and genocide of an indigenous people by a foreign invader. Secondly, though it's true civilians do suffer and die in times of war, this is the first conflict where they've been deliberately targeted, particularly women and children. Not only that they've been shot to maim not only to kill. A fact verified by several UN agencies, civil rights groups and western surgeons stationed on the ground there. Or do you think they're all liars? | |||
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"That's literally nonsense. Before we are gay, bi, whatever, we are human. Suggesting you can't have empathy for someone's suffering because thier (now destroyed) government doesn't support gay, bi, whatever, is quite bonkers." Because they don't share our ideals they have to die. What a sad state humanity has descended to. | |||
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"That's literally nonsense. Before we are gay, bi, whatever, we are human. Suggesting you can't have empathy for someone's suffering because thier (now destroyed) government doesn't support gay, bi, whatever, is quite bonkers. Because they don't share our ideals they have to die. What a sad state humanity has descended to." No one is suggesting they have to die. Yes we can have empathy with the ordinary people who are suffering---suffering thanks to the action of their awful governing body that provoked this latest conflict. Unfortunately showing your rather blind support for Palestine suggests you are supporting their horrendous regime rather than the people. | |||
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"That's literally nonsense. Before we are gay, bi, whatever, we are human. Suggesting you can't have empathy for someone's suffering because thier (now destroyed) government doesn't support gay, bi, whatever, is quite bonkers. Because they don't share our ideals they have to die. What a sad state humanity has descended to. No one is suggesting they have to die. Yes we can have empathy with the ordinary people who are suffering---suffering thanks to the action of their awful governing body that provoked this latest conflict. Unfortunately showing your rather blind support for Palestine suggests you are supporting their horrendous regime rather than the people." Again, Hamas did not start this conflict, it began in 1947. | |||
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"Go speak to Queers for Palestine, tonnes of support for Hamas there! Loads of them in the bars I go to. Then you point out the Homosexuality death penalty to them, their heads almost explode!" .. 🏴 But no support on the forum 🏴 | |||
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"That's literally nonsense. Before we are gay, bi, whatever, we are human. Suggesting you can't have empathy for someone's suffering because thier (now destroyed) government doesn't support gay, bi, whatever, is quite bonkers. Because they don't share our ideals they have to die. What a sad state humanity has descended to. No one is suggesting they have to die. Yes we can have empathy with the ordinary people who are suffering---suffering thanks to the action of their awful governing body that provoked this latest conflict. Unfortunately showing your rather blind support for Palestine suggests you are supporting their horrendous regime rather than the people." Criticism of Israel is not default support for Hamas. I'm sure many people will be unable to criticise what Israel is doing. Palestine and Palestinians are not Hamas, and Hamas is not Palestine, in teh same way Labour is not Great Britain. Coincidentally, it was Israel, notably its current PM, who brought Hamas to power in the first place, in a deluded hope that conflict with the Palestinian Authority would shatter aspirations for a Palestinian state. | |||
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"That's literally nonsense. Before we are gay, bi, whatever, we are human. Suggesting you can't have empathy for someone's suffering because thier (now destroyed) government doesn't support gay, bi, whatever, is quite bonkers. Because they don't share our ideals they have to die. What a sad state humanity has descended to. No one is suggesting they have to die. Yes we can have empathy with the ordinary people who are suffering---suffering thanks to the action of their awful governing body that provoked this latest conflict. Unfortunately showing your rather blind support for Palestine suggests you are supporting their horrendous regime rather than the people." .... ... 🇵🇸 The poster has never endorsed the regime though🇵🇸 | |||
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"That's literally nonsense. Before we are gay, bi, whatever, we are human. Suggesting you can't have empathy for someone's suffering because thier (now destroyed) government doesn't support gay, bi, whatever, is quite bonkers. Because they don't share our ideals they have to die. What a sad state humanity has descended to. No one is suggesting they have to die. Yes we can have empathy with the ordinary people who are suffering---suffering thanks to the action of their awful governing body that provoked this latest conflict. Unfortunately showing your rather blind support for Palestine suggests you are supporting their horrendous regime rather than the people. Criticism of Israel is not default support for Hamas. I'm sure many people will be unable to criticise what Israel is doing. Palestine and Palestinians are not Hamas, and Hamas is not Palestine, in teh same way Labour is not Great Britain. Coincidentally, it was Israel, notably its current PM, who brought Hamas to power in the first place, in a deluded hope that conflict with the Palestinian Authority would shatter aspirations for a Palestinian state. " I see little difference between 'they have to die' and 'no one is stopping the killing'. No one is stopping the killing because of the belief that they have to die. To stay silent is to condone, to stay impotent is to be complicit. | |||
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"It's the tired, lazy and childish rule that any criticism of Israel is evidence of support for Hamas and/or antisemitic. It's actually quite pathetic." .. ...🏴 Well said🏴 | |||
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"That's literally nonsense. Before we are gay, bi, whatever, we are human. Suggesting you can't have empathy for someone's suffering because thier (now destroyed) government doesn't support gay, bi, whatever, is quite bonkers. Because they don't share our ideals they have to die. What a sad state humanity has descended to. No one is suggesting they have to die. Yes we can have empathy with the ordinary people who are suffering---suffering thanks to the action of their awful governing body that provoked this latest conflict. Unfortunately showing your rather blind support for Palestine suggests you are supporting their horrendous regime rather than the people. Again, Hamas did not start this conflict, it began in 1947." I was talking about the latest conflict which started as a result of actions taken in October 2023. Historically you could argue it began with the Romans around AD70. Or perhaps before with the Jewish tribes returning after the Egyptian a Babylonian exiles. It has been a very troubled and fought over area for millennia. Massive faults on both sides. No one is 100% certain as to who to believe. They could all live in peace if they really wanted to but their governments clearly don't want to. | |||
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"Wrong on so many levels, please research your history properly. Who is? You is." He's not. Unless you read the likes of Ilan Pappewho seems to be something of a contrarian. | |||
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"Finding this discussion interesting. Particularly all the support for Hamas. I think Hamas is the block to peace. If Hamas laid down it weapons, there would be peace eventually. If Israel laid down its, Israel would be destroyed. Also from the perspective of a bi man, I the support strange. Homosexuality in Gaza is punishable by death. Israel is the only country in the middle east where Homosexuality is legal" The Israeli states crimes against the Palestinians predates the founding of Hamas. It is absurd to say Hamas is preventing Israel from being a benevolent entity in the region. Israel has never been benevolent. As for social liberalism, gay marriage is still illegal in Israel, and sexuality isn’t the only sphere of social liberty. Israeli society is famous for its racism. Minority religious groups are routinely heckled and abused. Israeli society is dominated by right wing politics. Its government is a coalition of right wing and far-right parties. Some of these parties make Reform UK look like Labour. But to circle back to peace, Israel in its current form is what is standing in the way of peace. Israel was founded as and is run as a Religious Apartheid White Ethno-State. Ethiopian Jews were sterilised on arrival into the state, and when the Soviet Union fell a blind eye was given to the non-Jewish Slavs claiming birthright citizenship because they could whiten up the gene pool. The two-state solution is evidentially an unworkable proposition. The Israeli state would need dissolving and a new inclusive constitution to establish lasting peace. It’ll be impossible to send all the Jewish settlers back to Europe and the neighbouring countries, (that they were coerced into fleeing via Israeli state backed terror campaigns which targeted Jewish communities (1950–1951 Baghdad bombings)) so a one state solution is the most practical solution. Civil rights for all, reparations and land/property returned to their Palestinian owners (the UN holds a growing database of all private property taken from Palestinians). Oh and for the record, calling Hamas terrorists is entirely reductive. Brown skin + guns ≠ terrorism. How many terrorists run municipal services? If a bin man is employed by Hamas, does that make him a terrorist? Israel thinks so. Israel thinks all civil servants in Gaza are terrorists and the west accepts that. It’s best to resist attempts to blur the lines between legitimate and illegitimate targets in a conflict. | |||
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"Wrong on so many levels, please research your history properly. Who is? You is. He's not. Unless you read the likes of Ilan Pappewho seems to be something of a contrarian." Going on intellectual capacity alone i would heed the words of Pappe and his peers above the ravings of agenda fuelled politicians and clerics. You call him a contrarian for speaking out against the populist narrative, he does but that does not make him wrong. Change often begins with academics, those in power will seek to discredit them and therefore their influence. Knowledge is the enemy of the tyrant, keep the people stupid and you keep them compliant. | |||
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"That's literally nonsense. Before we are gay, bi, whatever, we are human. Suggesting you can't have empathy for someone's suffering because thier (now destroyed) government doesn't support gay, bi, whatever, is quite bonkers. Because they don't share our ideals they have to die. What a sad state humanity has descended to. No one is suggesting they have to die. Yes we can have empathy with the ordinary people who are suffering---suffering thanks to the action of their awful governing body that provoked this latest conflict. Unfortunately showing your rather blind support for Palestine suggests you are supporting their horrendous regime rather than the people. Again, Hamas did not start this conflict, it began in 1947. I was talking about the latest conflict which started as a result of actions taken in October 2023. Historically you could argue it began with the Romans around AD70. Or perhaps before with the Jewish tribes returning after the Egyptian a Babylonian exiles. It has been a very troubled and fought over area for millennia. Massive faults on both sides. No one is 100% certain as to who to believe. They could all live in peace if they really wanted to but their governments clearly don't want to." Again, the existence and actions of Hamas are the consequence not the cause. | |||
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"Some of you people really need to take real history lessons instead of spouting utter bullshit! " I completely agree. Unfortunately the history of the Jew is very much the history according to the Jew. | |||
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"What might a 'real' history lesson entail? 😭🤔" It would hopefully entail plenty of supporting archaeological evidence. That should be interesting. | |||
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"What might a 'real' history lesson entail? 😭🤔 It would hopefully entail plenty of supporting archaeological evidence. That should be interesting." Spoiler alert: i've already looked. Evidence is either scant, flimsy or completely non existent. Given the wealth of archaeology found from both Iron Age and Bronze Age civilisations across the world this lack is quite striking. I wonder why? | |||
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"Some of you people really need to take real history lessons instead of spouting utter bullshit! I completely agree. Unfortunately the history of the Jew is very much the history according to the Jew." In the same way the history of the Arabic Palestinian is very much a history according to the Arabic Palestinian. However history is a bit irrelevant here. We are talking millions of people on both sides living today. | |||
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"Some of you people really need to take real history lessons instead of spouting utter bullshit! I completely agree. Unfortunately the history of the Jew is very much the history according to the Jew. In the same way the history of the Arabic Palestinian is very much a history according to the Arabic Palestinian. However history is a bit irrelevant here. We are talking millions of people on both sides living today." Much more is known about Canaanite society than early Jewish society simply because a much greater wealth of archaeology has been discovered. Given the discription of the kingdoms of Israel and Judea in the Old Testament the question is how to explain the lack. Here's a tale for you. A few years ago the Israeli government decided to embark on a quest to find the fabled City of David in order to prove the historicity of the Old Testament. You might have heard of it, a glorious place of unrivalled wealth, of golden palaces and marble statues, blah, blah, blah. They employed the best scientists, used the latest equipment, invited archaeologists from all over the world to join the search. The result? After years of searching they unearthed a few broken steps. The authorities tried to gloss over this and claim that the archaeology had been lost the ravages of time even though finds from earlier periods were plentiful. This even prompted Haaretz to admit in an article: "given the lack of concrete evidence it would appear that even if the City of David did exist it was no more than a rural backwater". You might think that history is irrelevant yet the claim to the land of Palestine is based directly upon it. Proving or disproving that history is, therefore, paramount. | |||
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"Some of you people really need to take real history lessons instead of spouting utter bullshit! I completely agree. Unfortunately the history of the Jew is very much the history according to the Jew. In the same way the history of the Arabic Palestinian is very much a history according to the Arabic Palestinian. However history is a bit irrelevant here. We are talking millions of people on both sides living today. Much more is known about Canaanite society than early Jewish society simply because a much greater wealth of archaeology has been discovered. Given the discription of the kingdoms of Israel and Judea in the Old Testament the question is how to explain the lack. Here's a tale for you. A few years ago the Israeli government decided to embark on a quest to find the fabled City of David in order to prove the historicity of the Old Testament. You might have heard of it, a glorious place of unrivalled wealth, of golden palaces and marble statues, blah, blah, blah. They employed the best scientists, used the latest equipment, invited archaeologists from all over the world to join the search. The result? After years of searching they unearthed a few broken steps. The authorities tried to gloss over this and claim that the archaeology had been lost the ravages of time even though finds from earlier periods were plentiful. This even prompted Haaretz to admit in an article: "given the lack of concrete evidence it would appear that even if the City of David did exist it was no more than a rural backwater". You might think that history is irrelevant yet the claim to the land of Palestine is based directly upon it. Proving or disproving that history is, therefore, paramount." Your tiresome efforts to show that Israel is an illegitimate entity serves no-one but ant-semites and islamists. Using DNA evidence for your argument has shades of Nazi Germany. We need to start from the status quo if peace is ever to be achieved. Israel is a legitimate state, member of the U.N. and recognised by a large majority of countries. It is beleaguered on three sides and by the benighted government in Iran. Many of these folk are taught from an early age (including in UNWRA schools) that their duty is to kill Jews even unto martyrdom. You simply don’t acknowledge that fact. Neither do you acknowledge that Hamas is an extreme Islamist organisation (you don’t seem to object to their religion like you object to Judaism) that held an iron grip over every aspect of life in Gaza. The destruction of Israel is its very lifeblood. I don’t agree with the way the war is currently being prosecuted and believe that Netanyahu has missed opportunities for peace and may well have burnt his boats with the Abraham Accord countries. How on earth are your arguments about millennia ago going to solve that. If you would actually like Israel to be driven into the sea, what do you imagine would replace it? It would be something very unpalatable indeed I suspect. Maybe you would find it preferable. | |||
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"It's Holy War - and becasue of the level of the dick swinging of the 'my god is greater' nonsense, an impossibility showdown where each team thinks they are divinely right; there will never be peace in these so called 'holy lands'. Let them get on with it, I say. " . In reality there is no such thing as a Holy war. Whatever war mongerers want to call there need to attack and kill other humans, the blame lay entirely with the Humans who indulge in this evil.Has nothing to do with God or any decent human being on this planet | |||
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"The here and now is the need to get food into bellies... The kids have done nothing wrong. " But…but… Hamas… No, you are simply right. Shooting starving children queueing for food is barbarism no matter the supposed justification. | |||
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"Wow, there is some proper hate filled racist evil people in this world, one thing that wasn't debated untill the "Palestine" lies gained momentum, is that the Jews are the only people to have had a presence in the land named "historic Palestine" or "ancient land of Israel" for over 3000 years, way before islam was invented, now the racists want to change history to suit their agenda with lie after lie after lie. And to make matters worse, socialists/national socialists and Islamists, literally the most racist murderous people humanity has ever known, are by nature also the most gullible naive mugs walking this earth and seam to me, to be swallowing the Palestine lie by the bucket full, drinking that kool-aid as the Americans call it, to fuel their hatred and racism." | |||
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"Some of you people really need to take real history lessons instead of spouting utter bullshit! I completely agree. Unfortunately the history of the Jew is very much the history according to the Jew. In the same way the history of the Arabic Palestinian is very much a history according to the Arabic Palestinian. However history is a bit irrelevant here. We are talking millions of people on both sides living today. Much more is known about Canaanite society than early Jewish society simply because a much greater wealth of archaeology has been discovered. Given the discription of the kingdoms of Israel and Judea in the Old Testament the question is how to explain the lack. Here's a tale for you. A few years ago the Israeli government decided to embark on a quest to find the fabled City of David in order to prove the historicity of the Old Testament. You might have heard of it, a glorious place of unrivalled wealth, of golden palaces and marble statues, blah, blah, blah. They employed the best scientists, used the latest equipment, invited archaeologists from all over the world to join the search. The result? After years of searching they unearthed a few broken steps. The authorities tried to gloss over this and claim that the archaeology had been lost the ravages of time even though finds from earlier periods were plentiful. This even prompted Haaretz to admit in an article: "given the lack of concrete evidence it would appear that even if the City of David did exist it was no more than a rural backwater". You might think that history is irrelevant yet the claim to the land of Palestine is based directly upon it. Proving or disproving that history is, therefore, paramount. Your tiresome efforts to show that Israel is an illegitimate entity serves no-one but ant-semites and islamists. Using DNA evidence for your argument has shades of Nazi Germany. We need to start from the status quo if peace is ever to be achieved. Israel is a legitimate state, member of the U.N. and recognised by a large majority of countries. It is beleaguered on three sides and by the benighted government in Iran. Many of these folk are taught from an early age (including in UNWRA schools) that their duty is to kill Jews even unto martyrdom. You simply don’t acknowledge that fact. Neither do you acknowledge that Hamas is an extreme Islamist organisation (you don’t seem to object to their religion like you object to Judaism) that held an iron grip over every aspect of life in Gaza. The destruction of Israel is its very lifeblood. I don’t agree with the way the war is currently being prosecuted and believe that Netanyahu has missed opportunities for peace and may well have burnt his boats with the Abraham Accord countries. How on earth are your arguments about millennia ago going to solve that. If you would actually like Israel to be driven into the sea, what do you imagine would replace it? It would be something very unpalatable indeed I suspect. Maybe you would find it preferable. " | |||
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"The here and now is the need to get food into bellies... The kids have done nothing wrong. " I don't think anyone in their right mind or with half a conscience would dispute that. | |||
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"Some of you people really need to take real history lessons instead of spouting utter bullshit! I completely agree. Unfortunately the history of the Jew is very much the history according to the Jew. In the same way the history of the Arabic Palestinian is very much a history according to the Arabic Palestinian. However history is a bit irrelevant here. We are talking millions of people on both sides living today. Much more is known about Canaanite society than early Jewish society simply because a much greater wealth of archaeology has been discovered. Given the discription of the kingdoms of Israel and Judea in the Old Testament the question is how to explain the lack. Here's a tale for you. A few years ago the Israeli government decided to embark on a quest to find the fabled City of David in order to prove the historicity of the Old Testament. You might have heard of it, a glorious place of unrivalled wealth, of golden palaces and marble statues, blah, blah, blah. They employed the best scientists, used the latest equipment, invited archaeologists from all over the world to join the search. The result? After years of searching they unearthed a few broken steps. The authorities tried to gloss over this and claim that the archaeology had been lost the ravages of time even though finds from earlier periods were plentiful. This even prompted Haaretz to admit in an article: "given the lack of concrete evidence it would appear that even if the City of David did exist it was no more than a rural backwater". You might think that history is irrelevant yet the claim to the land of Palestine is based directly upon it. Proving or disproving that history is, therefore, paramount." History is always subjective especially very ancient history where there are few written records and you have to rely on archeology which doesn't always prove anything conclusively. It is even disputed that the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is actually the site of Solomon's original Temple. Try and convince the Jews of that. You still don't give an answer DD as to what could or should happen. Harping on about the possible history of ancient tribes suggest you think the Jews should be expelled from the State of Israel and that it should be handed back lock, stock and barrel to the Palestinians. | |||
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"Wow, there is some proper hate filled racist evil people in this world, one thing that wasn't debated untill the "Palestine" lies gained momentum, is that the Jews are the only people to have had a presence in the land named "historic Palestine" or "ancient land of Israel" for over 3000 years, way before islam was invented, now the racists want to change history to suit their agenda with lie after lie after lie. And to make matters worse, socialists/national socialists and Islamists, literally the most racist murderous people humanity has ever known, are by nature also the most gullible naive mugs walking this earth and seam to me, to be swallowing the Palestine lie by the bucket full, drinking that kool-aid as the Americans call it, to fuel their hatred and racism." .... ... ... 🇵🇸 Plenty get mugged off in life but one thing is clear about this dreadful conflict: Israel's response to what happened two years ago has long lost all sense of proportion. Many of us are able to see this- we haven't been mugged off by the lies spouted by spokespersons and outriders. Lie after lie after lie. Numerous independent aid agencies know what Israel has said about the killing of civilians as they seek aid just hasn't been true. There is plenty hate shown towards Palestinians. Perhaps you could consider the deplorable actions of the settlers the next time you discuss 'evil'? 🇵🇸 | |||
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"Finding this discussion interesting. Particularly all the support for Hamas. I think Hamas is the block to peace. If Hamas laid down it weapons, there would be peace eventually. If Israel laid down its, Israel would be destroyed. Also from the perspective of a bi man, I the support strange. Homosexuality in Gaza is punishable by death. Israel is the only country in the middle east where Homosexuality is legal Well said x So it's ok to slaughter people just because they have different beliefs? Borderline fascism." Because hamas would never ever do such a thing, try taking your pride flag into hamas controlled state see how long they sympathise with you | |||
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"Some of you people really need to take real history lessons instead of spouting utter bullshit! I completely agree. Unfortunately the history of the Jew is very much the history according to the Jew. In the same way the history of the Arabic Palestinian is very much a history according to the Arabic Palestinian. However history is a bit irrelevant here. We are talking millions of people on both sides living today. Much more is known about Canaanite society than early Jewish society simply because a much greater wealth of archaeology has been discovered. Given the discription of the kingdoms of Israel and Judea in the Old Testament the question is how to explain the lack. Here's a tale for you. A few years ago the Israeli government decided to embark on a quest to find the fabled City of David in order to prove the historicity of the Old Testament. You might have heard of it, a glorious place of unrivalled wealth, of golden palaces and marble statues, blah, blah, blah. They employed the best scientists, used the latest equipment, invited archaeologists from all over the world to join the search. The result? After years of searching they unearthed a few broken steps. The authorities tried to gloss over this and claim that the archaeology had been lost the ravages of time even though finds from earlier periods were plentiful. This even prompted Haaretz to admit in an article: "given the lack of concrete evidence it would appear that even if the City of David did exist it was no more than a rural backwater". You might think that history is irrelevant yet the claim to the land of Palestine is based directly upon it. Proving or disproving that history is, therefore, paramount. History is always subjective especially very ancient history where there are few written records and you have to rely on archeology which doesn't always prove anything conclusively. It is even disputed that the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is actually the site of Solomon's original Temple. Try and convince the Jews of that. You still don't give an answer DD as to what could or should happen. Harping on about the possible history of ancient tribes suggest you think the Jews should be expelled from the State of Israel and that it should be handed back lock, stock and barrel to the Palestinians. " Israel is the dream of the Zionist not the Jew yet posters continue to (deliberately?) conflate the two in an effort to stifle criticism with the same old tired mantra of anti-Semitism. Zionism is a far right political movement that has successfully hijacked Judaism as a means to further it's agenda. There is hatred, my critics are correct but for Zionism not Judaism. I actually feel sorry for the Jews, many of the more liberal/orthodox deplore the actions of the Israeli regime, the rest either have the same psychopatic tendencies of their leaders or have been brainwashed. You only have to listen to the vile rhetoric they spew forth on a daily basis. As for history? The only claim the Zionists have to the land of Palestine is based on one of ancestory, the only evidence they have to support that claim is what's written in the Old Testament, itself of dubious origin. Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the onus of proof on the claimant, that they should provide the evidence to support their claim? Surely any court of law would demand this yet the only significant thing about the evidence is the total lack of it. Basically ownership has been granted simply because we've been unable to prove otherwise. Farcical. I am of Anglo-Saxon descent, imagine me hopping over to Frankfurt and forcibly evicting a family from their home yet being unable to provide any evidence to support my right to do so. The courts would really go for that? Yet that's what's happened here. Of course Israel was accepted by the international community, partly due to the overriding guilt following the Holocaust but mostly because Christian Europe at that time believed in the historicity of both the Testaments. Time has moved on, modern science has questioned this belief yet we've gone so far that we can't possibly give voice to our mistake. Even with all this in mind i would still refuse to see the destruction of Israel. I've never had a problem with Jews living in Palestine, they always have just as they live in many other parts of the world. What i do have a problem with is their assumption of overlord, the fact that they clearly feel superior to the Palestinians and treat them accordingly. So here's what i would like to see happen: that the west drops the mother of all sanctions on Israel and forces them to adopt the Two State Solution. That the land be divided equally west to east so that Gaza and the West Bank are re-joined. Finally, that the west fully recognises and supports the new Palestinian state. Not too much to ask for? | |||
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"Finding this discussion interesting. Particularly all the support for Hamas. I think Hamas is the block to peace. If Hamas laid down it weapons, there would be peace eventually. If Israel laid down its, Israel would be destroyed. Also from the perspective of a bi man, I the support strange. Homosexuality in Gaza is punishable by death. Israel is the only country in the middle east where Homosexuality is legal Well said x So it's ok to slaughter people just because they have different beliefs? Borderline fascism. Because hamas would never ever do such a thing, try taking your pride flag into hamas controlled state see how long they sympathise with you " So the fact Hamas are cunts means every Palestinian needs to die? | |||
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"Finding this discussion interesting. Particularly all the support for Hamas. I think Hamas is the block to peace. If Hamas laid down it weapons, there would be peace eventually. If Israel laid down its, Israel would be destroyed. Also from the perspective of a bi man, I the support strange. Homosexuality in Gaza is punishable by death. Israel is the only country in the middle east where Homosexuality is legal Well said x So it's ok to slaughter people just because they have different beliefs? Borderline fascism. Because hamas would never ever do such a thing, try taking your pride flag into hamas controlled state see how long they sympathise with you So the fact Hamas are cunts means every Palestinian needs to die? " "Take everything that Hamas has done, multiply it by one thousand and it will still not come close to the atrocities and oppression committed by the state of Israel". Gabor Mate, holocaust survivor, former Zionist and quite possibly the wisest man in the world. | |||
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"Who cares? The civilian casualty rate would be quite low if H@m@s manned up and stopped hiding behind the _ocal population. They just want dead kids and civilians and starvation (that's why they take all the aid, and sell it to the _ocal population) because they know daft westerners will blindly follow like sheep to condemn the nasty Jews. Now would you like to comment on the Muslims committing war crimes on the Druse, Christians, Buhdists, Hindus, Kurds and all the others? " | |||
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"And actually if you read your history. Israel haven't occupied the occupied territory for quite some time, and if dumb asses stopped firing rockets at them, carrying out terrorist attacks against them and taking their people and guests hostage....... There wouldn't be a war. When Israel moved out of illegally occupied areas they left all the irrigation and hydroponic gear behind. As a gift. Despite feeling the need to exhume their dead to prevent desecration. And the palastinians destroyed everything they were left. " | |||
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"Golly! Gosh! Another thread initiated by this particular poster to excoriate Israel and the Jews. Who’d have thunk it, eh?! “It seems that they really do believe that they have a divine mandate.” Lots of the world religions believe they have a divine mandate and will claim their actions are predicated by that divine mandate. But you never want to discuss the follies of other religious zealots - just one particular religious group. The West has all sorts of alignments (often unsavoury and controversial) with “religious fundamentalists” the world over. But you never want to critique the West’s relationships with other fundamentalist regimes - just one particular religious group. This is because you are… OBSESSED WITH THE JEWS. " Very true indeed  | |||
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"Wrong on so many levels, please research your history properly. Who is? You is. Sorry to have to tell you this but you sound as if you have very little knowledge of the area or its history. Didn't you claim that Jews predate Palestine? It seems that i'm not the one found lacking." Why dont you go to Palestine and help them if you feel strongly about it? I cant understand why people are protesting here. Not a UK problem and we have enough of our own issues to deal with. You need to read up on your history as well. | |||
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"Wrong on so many levels, please research your history properly. Who is? You is. Sorry to have to tell you this but you sound as if you have very little knowledge of the area or its history. Didn't you claim that Jews predate Palestine? It seems that i'm not the one found lacking. Why dont you go to Palestine and help them if you feel strongly about it? I cant understand why people are protesting here. Not a UK problem and we have enough of our own issues to deal with. You need to read up on your history as well." | |||
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"Wrong on so many levels, please research your history properly. Who is? You is. Sorry to have to tell you this but you sound as if you have very little knowledge of the area or its history. Didn't you claim that Jews predate Palestine? It seems that i'm not the one found lacking. Why dont you go to Palestine and help them if you feel strongly about it? I cant understand why people are protesting here. Not a UK problem and we have enough of our own issues to deal with. You need to read up on your history as well." You know how when Israel got attacked (again) and went to war all the El Al flights were full of trained IDF reservist and ex IDF unlike when some other countries have come under threat or started a war where all the men run away. | |||
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" You still don't give an answer DD as to what could or should happen. Harping on about the possible history of ancient tribes suggest you think the Jews should be expelled from the State of Israel and that it should be handed back lock, stock and barrel to the Palestinians. Israel is the dream of the Zionist not the Jew yet posters continue to (deliberately?) conflate the two in an effort to stifle criticism with the same old tired mantra of anti-Semitism. Zionism is a far right political movement that has successfully hijacked Judaism as a means to further it's agenda. There is hatred, my critics are correct but for Zionism not Judaism. I actually feel sorry for the Jews, many of the more liberal/orthodox deplore the actions of the Israeli regime, the rest either have the same psychopatic tendencies of their leaders or have been brainwashed. You only have to listen to the vile rhetoric they spew forth on a daily basis. As for history? The only claim the Zionists have to the land of Palestine is based on one of ancestory, the only evidence they have to support that claim is what's written in the Old Testament, itself of dubious origin. Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the onus of proof on the claimant, that they should provide the evidence to support their claim? Surely any court of law would demand this yet the only significant thing about the evidence is the total lack of it. Basically ownership has been granted simply because we've been unable to prove otherwise. Farcical. I am of Anglo-Saxon descent, imagine me hopping over to Frankfurt and forcibly evicting a family from their home yet being unable to provide any evidence to support my right to do so. The courts would really go for that? Yet that's what's happened here. Of course Israel was accepted by the international community, partly due to the overriding guilt following the Holocaust but mostly because Christian Europe at that time believed in the historicity of both the Testaments. Time has moved on, modern science has questioned this belief yet we've gone so far that we can't possibly give voice to our mistake. Even with all this in mind i would still refuse to see the destruction of Israel. I've never had a problem with Jews living in Palestine, they always have just as they live in many other parts of the world. What i do have a problem with is their assumption of overlord, the fact that they clearly feel superior to the Palestinians and treat them accordingly. So here's what i would like to see happen: that the west drops the mother of all sanctions on Israel and forces them to adopt the Two State Solution. That the land be divided equally west to east so that Gaza and the West Bank are re-joined. Finally, that the west fully recognises and supports the new Palestinian state. Not too much to ask for? " No one disputes that militant Zionists are the chief cheerleaders for the State of Israel. However most are ordinary Jews whose ancestors have been pushed from pillar to post for centuries, and just want to enjoy a homeland. Whilst the current Elected Israeli government is a coalition of right-wing parties, this has not always been the case. Left, centre-left and centre parties have ruled Israel in the past and still suffered hostility from neighbours. Israel has probably had more general elections than any other country in the last few years. 'Palestinians' living in Israel are entitled to vote and are represented in the Knesset. Ideally there should be a two state solution. Possibly three. There seems to be a world of difference between the West Bank and Gaza. I doubt Egypt would want Gaza back as you may remember it was part of Egypt prior to 1967. Jerusalem is a bit of an anomaly. Ideally it should become a neutral city state ruled by an elected government but under the joint titular leadership of the Jews, Christians and Muslims. | |||
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"No one gives a f*ck. If anyone did give a f*ck they would be joining the fight. It's the same with Russia and Ukraine too. If you feel that strongly stop banging on about it from behind your keyboard and book a flight to the Middle East. Can you just imagine if twitter was about in WW2, I bet Hitler would of been shitting himself with all the brave keyboard warriors. " The majority of protectors for Palestine are rent a mob who will turn up for any protest regardless of what its about. Its been said that a lot of these Palestine protectors where also at the Just Stop Oil protests. | |||
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"I mean the whole nation of Israel was built on the Zionist idealogy of the “chosen people” With that being thrust upon them and their far right politics openly calling for Genocide, the public over time will take that as Gospel It’s a basket case of a country and one we in the West feel all to happy to back" 👎 👎 👎 | |||
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"I mean the whole nation of Israel was built on the Zionist idealogy of the “chosen people” With that being thrust upon them and their far right politics openly calling for Genocide, the public over time will take that as Gospel It’s a basket case of a country and one we in the West feel all to happy to back" There are still some out there that have the human decency to feel disgust and outrage. | |||
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"My "rubbish" is knowledge from living in Israeli society, alongside normal Israelis. If that's your idea of rubbish, then I'd love to see what your idea of not-rubbish is. Too many speak about Israel and Palestine without knowing anything about the facts on the ground and the way their societies work. As I was part of that society, I think that gives me the knowledge, don't you? Or do you simply have a blanket policy of dismissing anything that doesn't fit your narrative, fact or not?" | |||
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"Who cares? The civilian casualty rate would be quite low if H@m@s manned up and stopped hiding behind the _ocal population. They just want dead kids and civilians and starvation (that's why they take all the aid, and sell it to the _ocal population) because they know daft westerners will blindly follow like sheep to condemn the nasty Jews. Now would you like to comment on the Muslims committing war crimes on the Druse, Christians, Buhdists, Hindus, Kurds and all the others? " The Druse and Kurds are Muslim. You don’t seem to know what you are talking about. | |||
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"Who cares? The civilian casualty rate would be quite low if H@m@s manned up and stopped hiding behind the _ocal population. They just want dead kids and civilians and starvation (that's why they take all the aid, and sell it to the _ocal population) because they know daft westerners will blindly follow like sheep to condemn the nasty Jews. Now would you like to comment on the Muslims committing war crimes on the Druse, Christians, Buhdists, Hindus, Kurds and all the others? The Druse and Kurds are Muslim. You don’t seem to know what you are talking about. " I named 2 specific ethnic groups in amongst national and religious groups. Ypk are actually hardcore Marxist and godless. The Druse are the wrong sect. 
Try harder Mr H | |||
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"No one gives a f*ck. If anyone did give a f*ck they would be joining the fight. It's the same with Russia and Ukraine too. If you feel that strongly stop banging on about it from behind your keyboard and book a flight to the Middle East. Can you just imagine if twitter was about in WW2, I bet Hitler would of been shitting himself with all the brave keyboard warriors. " lol | |||
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"Who cares? The civilian casualty rate would be quite low if H@m@s manned up and stopped hiding behind the _ocal population. They just want dead kids and civilians and starvation (that's why they take all the aid, and sell it to the _ocal population) because they know daft westerners will blindly follow like sheep to condemn the nasty Jews. Now would you like to comment on the Muslims committing war crimes on the Druse, Christians, Buhdists, Hindus, Kurds and all the others? The Druse and Kurds are Muslim. You don’t seem to know what you are talking about. I named 2 specific ethnic groups in amongst national and religious groups. Ypk are actually hardcore Marxist and godless. The Druse are the wrong sect.
Try harder Mr H "Sorry pal but you are just making this up as you go along. You said Kurds, that is not just the YPK, but the whole of Kurdistan who are largely Muslim. Druze are Muslim, a different sect but still Muslim. If what you meant to say was Sunni’s committing war crimes on other muslims, then fine, but you didn’t say that, did you? If you don’t know what you are talking about, maybe stop pretending you do and belittling those who question your nonsense? | |||
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"Who cares? The civilian casualty rate would be quite low if H@m@s manned up and stopped hiding behind the _ocal population. They just want dead kids and civilians and starvation (that's why they take all the aid, and sell it to the _ocal population) because they know daft westerners will blindly follow like sheep to condemn the nasty Jews. Now would you like to comment on the Muslims committing war crimes on the Druse, Christians, Buhdists, Hindus, Kurds and all the others? The Druse and Kurds are Muslim. You don’t seem to know what you are talking about. I named 2 specific ethnic groups in amongst national and religious groups. Ypk are actually hardcore Marxist and godless. The Druse are the wrong sect.
Try harder Mr H
Sorry pal but you are just making this up as you go along. You said Kurds, that is not just the YPK, but the whole of Kurdistan who are largely Muslim.
Druze are Muslim, a different sect but still Muslim.
If what you meant to say was Sunni’s committing war crimes on other muslims, then fine, but you didn’t say that, did you?
If you don’t know what you are talking about, maybe stop pretending you do and belittling those who question your nonsense?"OK Mr H | |||
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"Who cares? The civilian casualty rate would be quite low if H@m@s manned up and stopped hiding behind the _ocal population. They just want dead kids and civilians and starvation (that's why they take all the aid, and sell it to the _ocal population) because they know daft westerners will blindly follow like sheep to condemn the nasty Jews. Now would you like to comment on the Muslims committing war crimes on the Druse, Christians, Buhdists, Hindus, Kurds and all the others? The Druse and Kurds are Muslim. You don’t seem to know what you are talking about. I named 2 specific ethnic groups in amongst national and religious groups. Ypk are actually hardcore Marxist and godless. The Druse are the wrong sect.
Try harder Mr H
Sorry pal but you are just making this up as you go along. You said Kurds, that is not just the YPK, but the whole of Kurdistan who are largely Muslim.
Druze are Muslim, a different sect but still Muslim.
If what you meant to say was Sunni’s committing war crimes on other muslims, then fine, but you didn’t say that, did you?
If you don’t know what you are talking about, maybe stop pretending you do and belittling those who question your nonsense?
OK Mr H "Sorry you don’t like it, but if you are going to write nonsense, what do you think gives you impunity not to be challenged when you are happy to challenge others? | |||
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"Who cares? The civilian casualty rate would be quite low if H@m@s manned up and stopped hiding behind the _ocal population. They just want dead kids and civilians and starvation (that's why they take all the aid, and sell it to the _ocal population) because they know daft westerners will blindly follow like sheep to condemn the nasty Jews. Now would you like to comment on the Muslims committing war crimes on the Druse, Christians, Buhdists, Hindus, Kurds and all the others? The Druse and Kurds are Muslim. You don’t seem to know what you are talking about. I named 2 specific ethnic groups in amongst national and religious groups. Ypk are actually hardcore Marxist and godless. The Druse are the wrong sect.
Try harder Mr H
Sorry pal but you are just making this up as you go along. You said Kurds, that is not just the YPK, but the whole of Kurdistan who are largely Muslim.
Druze are Muslim, a different sect but still Muslim.
If what you meant to say was Sunni’s committing war crimes on other muslims, then fine, but you didn’t say that, did you?
If you don’t know what you are talking about, maybe stop pretending you do and belittling those who question your nonsense?
OK Mr H
Sorry you don’t like it, but if you are going to write nonsense, what do you think gives you impunity not to be challenged when you are happy to challenge others?"OK Mr H | |||
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